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This is what happens when theology students are facebook friends….

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I Had An Awe and Wonder Moment A Few Days Ago….

I was watching the latest recording of “Jesus Christ Superstar” at the 02 (you will only really know about this is you British OR a big fan of Andrew Lloyd Webber/Musicals (what am I saying? This IS Gay Christian.) And while the whole thing was wonderful, it came to the crucifixion, the script for this part is a combination of what Jesus say’s in all four Gospels during his death and an added line of “Where is my mother?! I want my mother!” 

The moment the actor said “I thirst! I am thirsty!” the tone was angry and desperate. From some reason the voice of Jesus has never come to me while reading the Gospels. I do not know why. I cannot hear Him, how His voice would have sounded, I have tried,  and this is why, I have come to realise, it took me such a long time to form a bond with Him.

The tone of that sentence sent me back to a First Aid Training session I had about  a month ago:

"When someone’s body goes into shock, they will become very, very thirsty, they will demand a drink, they may even get violent and angry."

Of course if someone today is injured and in shock you can’t give them a drink as normally it is caused by a severe injury that needs surgery and anesthetic will need to be used. But of course Jesus, didn’t need an anesthetic. He was dying. He was being executed. In agony. And his body went into shock. His body was just like ours. This rocked my soul. It struck me to my very core. I literally couldn’t speak for two hours. Jesus went into shock and begged for water to quench that resulting desperate thirst. Yes it also fulfilled a prophecy but for me it now means so much more. I had been told time and time again that Jesus was fully human but I don’t fully believe it sunk in. Theological teaching that I knew was true but I didn’t KNOW in my soul it was. That has now changed. 

Alicia

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The Bethel Confession was authored by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Hermann Sasse, and others during August 1933, in order to oppose the false teachings that were flooding the German protestant church after the victory of the German Christians at the church election of July, 1933.

-Ian

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We have 377 Signatures! We need 10000! Let make this happen people!

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freedchristian:

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freedchristian:

Hello guys. I keep getting comments stating that homosexuality is biblically sanctioned. This is fine, freedom of speech is great. However, I find I can’t properly reply to these. So here are my reasons as to why I don’t engage in homosexuality.

Firstly, I take my system of morality from the…

  1. Guess I’m not a Christian according to your “moral code”. Your morality is not necessarily God’s.
  2. Yes the poem of Genesis does describe man join woman and creating the institution of marriage. However in that same poem, they’re the only people on Earth so breeding was a must for the story to continue. Also, Same-sex marriage wasn’t relevant to the culture of that day and age. The idea couldn’t have made sense to Israelites 4000 years ago, there was no real concept of sexuality. 
  3. Leviticus 18:22 says “do not lie with man as with a woman”, the process of making a man a woman and objectifying him as such continues today as a taboo part of certain Arabic cultures. Afghan culture (perhaps specially Pashtun) is a prime example of this. It can be presumed that such practices were quashed within the Semitic culture after the issuance of the Law of Moses. Also cult references to the worship of Molech, where this orgiastic activity often stemmed from, is referred to immediately before in Lev 18:21! Where the cult is mentioned! Curious that on that note the author decided to mention men giving themselves up as women to other men as if referring to temple prostitution (a part of the cult).
  4. In Romans 1:26-27, it’s obvious he’s condemning the orgiastic culture of graceo-roman society. With 24 hour orgies open in the temples of Corinth where sex gods reigned, I would’ve condemned that sort of immorality too! This extreme eroticism isn’t natural and isn’t the will of God, where monogamy and love is the plan He holds for us.
  5. The word ‘homosexuality’ or “homosexual offenders” did not exist in the ancient Mediterranean or anywhere else to my knowledge at the time. These words did not exist in Timothy or Galatians.
  6. Accepting yourself does not fly in the face of God having died for you. Trying to change what He made in you does. Staying celibate for the wrong reason is tragic, calling what is natural and pure (if acted upon in a Christlike manner by someone born with that natural desire) a “sin”. Calling homosexuality a sin is a lie spawned by the Bishop of Milan in the 4th Century in an effort to create a scapegoat for rioting in cisalpine Italy. Homophobia has no real scriptural ground to stand on and is, given that, a heresy. However, homophobia does not alienate you from God entirely. Yes, there is no question that it is a sin but Christ died for everyone and no sin is unforgivable. Christianity is not about damning you or restricting your desire for relationship to an excruciating extent, its about uplifting others and making your life all about others. Being celibate because you are gay crushes that hopeful message and replaces it with a falsified theology that makes that message of redemption and love silver tongued and cruelly dark. I do not follow that god, I follow the Christ who said “For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” (http://www.gaychristian101.com/Homosexual-Eunuchs.html; this isn’t me actually oddly enough haha) That stated, celibacy can be wonderful! Or it can be for the wrong reason, and thus becoming an idol in your spiritual life, separating you from the God that loves you and made you just the way you are for a romantic relationship someday!

-Ian

Just beautiful

And very interesting!

1. I never said you weren’t ‘a Christian’. But what you’ve done is imply that the moral code, which I took straight out of the Bible, is my own. In doing so you’ve rejected the belief that it is God’s. A belief which has been held for thousands of years. 

2. When you deliberately label Genesis a poem, it honestly sounds like you are catering towards a modern audience, who have no contextual knowledge of the meaning of ‘poetry’ to semitic cultures. Instead, you almost reduce Genesis to a fairy tale with that tone…Then you go on to make some absurd claims. Firstly that homosexuality wasn’t relevant? How do you know that? And why do you relegate the intelligence of the Israelites to a ‘caveman’ like level. I’m sure there was a lot the Israelites did not understand, yet God demonstrated the unexplainable in front of their eyes. Those arguments really fall flat. 

3. Why were they quashed? Did Moses hand down a law which was faulty? Did God not ordain two sexes, and a Godly way for them to sexually relate? 

4. I fail to see where he is talking about Corinth? (I could be wrong). But I think my opinion on this subject is that sexual tolerance just wasn’t relevant to Paul. Monogamy is an outdated idea that had to be instilled in the Israelites because they couldn’t understand anything else. Sleeping around is okay as long as there is love there. (Does that grind against you? Because that’s exactly what you’ve done with homosexuality.) You would condemn it because society has told you it’s still unacceptable. 50 years from now, you would likely be championing this cause. 

5. I hadn’t claimed those exact words did. But scripture is full of enough Hebrew/Greek/Latin/Aramaic words which clearly discuss homosexuality as a departure from God’s plans. I’ve posted articles about those words before and how Paul’s words clearly tie into the Levitical admonitions that men do not sleep with men. But, if you don’t believe it, we obviously are going back and forth to no avail.

6. Accepting yourself does fly in the face of God dying for you. I honestly don’t know why you would champion the other? We know as Christians that naturally we are worthy of death. That without God, any good deeds we do fall flat. To have even broken one law, is to have broken them all. So accepting myself, without God, is to accept my immorality and disgusting nature. 

Staying celibate for the wrong reasons isn’t tragic. Genocide is tragic. Believing that God has called you to celibacy is a choice. Sex isn’t a compulsory action. 

I’d like some sources for that Bishop of Milan notion (not being narky, just would like something to back it up, because you didn’t really explain it very well).

Just because I do not accept homosexuality as God’s plan, doesn’t mean I am homophobic. (Do you know that word doesn’t exist in the Bible. Mustn’t be a sin!) I care more for homosexuals than most. 

I follow a God who has called us to lay down our lives for his sake. To not cling to our sinful nature, and call it good. A God who loves us, and calls us as we are. A God who works out our faults as we grow with him. A God who made something of this homosexual. A God who died for me in my sins. A God who continues to lavish me in his grace despite my wrongs. A God who also clearly admonishes the practice of homosexuality, scripturally.

I encourage everyone who reads this to research the Biblical and historical position that practicing homosexuality is against God’s plans. There are plenty of resources. Some throughout my blog. Many online. 

  1. A belief held since the 4th century (roughly 1500 years). Based on the research I and others have seen, homophobia was not supported in the Mosaic Law. The condemnation there was taken out of context years later.
  2. I do believe that much of Genesis is poetic in nature ( http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_genesis_1.html ) and allegorical, not literal. We can see this in the science that we have to today. That the Earth was not created in 6 days, but over millions of years. You go on to say I make “absurd claims”, one of which is that I say that ‘homosexuality wasn’t really relevant’. Well, you can see that substantiated in how little the Bible even mentions homosexual acts. That is in of itself obvious. Plus you will find little archaeological evidence of homosexuality (positive or negative) of homosexuality in Ancient Israel. To move on, you say I make the Israelite seem like they have the intellect of “cavemen”. Well, in all honesty, they weren’t exactly modern scientists nor were they known for their halls of philosophy like the Greeks were. This is not to be held against them, for they were simply farmers and nomads who were descended from slaves. God rose them to greatness, yes. But no one should ever assume they had exceeding knowledge of academics, for they were still a primitive culture by today’s standards. I fail to see where my “arguments really fall flat”.
  3. a) They were quashed because rape and prostitution is immoral? I don’t see what is so terribly confusing about that? b) Nowhere did I say the Law was faulty in that aforementioned statement. c) Yes he did, but we are not limited to romantic relationship with just the opposite sex (that said I do not condone polygamy or fornication).
  4. a) I wasn’t saying that Paul was speaking on Corinth in Romans, I used Corinth as an example of Graeco-Roman moral decay. Which he actually addresses in 1 Corinthians. b) Never did I say that it’s OK to have premarital sex. I don’t know where you got that idea from. c) Society is actually growing to support the LGBT Community, if you haven’t noticed. It is my observation, with the Church starting to throw it’s lot in with same-sex marriage, and with “ex gay ministries” starting to flounder and get restricted by laws and inquiries (as in Ecuador), that celibate gays and “ex gays” will only exist within priesthoods. It is my hypothesis that such philosophy will no longer exist in 50 years.
  5. I have myself have also posted articles on Levitical homosexuality which, with all due respect, refute yours. And yes, I have to agree with you on the latter point.
  6. Accepting your sexuality, not your sin (rather you acknowledge your sin-nature), does not fly in the face of God.

Staying celibate (from romantic relationships and sex, in marriage) for the priesthood, mission work etc. can be beautiful and fruitful! But staying celibate based on a grandiose misconception about what our loving and compassionate God says about sexuality, is not. It keeps you from further exploring God in a loving committed relationship. The denial of that beautiful encounter in one another that is ordained by God is tragic

I follow a God who loves me as I am and wouldn’t pride himself in the misery of individuals denying themselves their natural orientation for fear of forsaking their faith. I follow a God who never condemns me for my natural sexuality and loves me to death, all scripturally. I am flawed, but my sexuality is not one of those flaws!

I encourage everyone who reads this to follow the footsteps of a loving God and put the well-being of others ahead of their own. That’s what I actually care about.

PS. ‘Homophobia’ is hatred and it does damage to people (thus a sin). Homosexuality is [not] and does neither in of itself.

-Ian

Resource on the ‘Bishop of Milan’: http://www.well.com/~aquarius/rome.htm

1. To be fair, that ‘article’ wasn’t very scholarly, and the references hard to double check. I honestly felt that he were mimicking my early form of essay writing; find a statistic, or a quote, and extrapolate in an almost deceptive way. I also found the article to focus very heavily on the creation of human laws. It disregarded the supernatural laws of God, as if to legitimise homosexuality. We know that even though our governments may declare something good, or something bad, it does not necessarily equate to God’s law. Nor did that article explain the perceptions of homosexuality pre-400AD…And when it did come close to addressing the issue it wasn’t substantiated…Do you have anything peer-reviewed? Or which addresses these questions…

2. Wow, okay, sorry. But please provide me with well researched links. I know that sounds snarky, but that link was very poor. I don’t mean in the way that it didn’t have referencing, because anyone can reference, but it was very poorly worded/researched. In no way does that provide evidence to show that the Earth was created over millions of years. And if you are a Christian (you as in anybody) and believe in evolution, so be it, as long as it doesn’t hinder you from knowing God. But there are many sites which refute this. http://creation.com/is-genesis-poetry-figurative-a-theological-argument-polemic-and-thus-not-history

Omission does not equate to something not being relevant. I definitely agree it was less relevant because it was largely unaccepted. But, it’s ‘relevance’ could easily have occurred. Very easily. Especially if your claims for it’s ‘natural’ occurrence are to be believed. Are we to believe then that homosexuality did not occur? Are we to ignore the verses that condemn it (and for your sake, I don’t refer to those that infer temple prostitution)…I honestly believe it was relevant. That’s why it’s mentioned… Archaeological evidence of a practice not allowed under Mosaic law, would of course be scant. Proving a point that it was not allowed.

And I would never claim they were similar to the Greeks in philosophy. But neither were the Greeks at that period in time. Intelligence is built upon intelligence. However your argument falls flat when you say that homosexuality didn’t occur because as a group the people couldn’t understand it. Which is ridiculous really, because the scriptures attest to it’s presence in one form or another. And understanding does not equate to the existence of revelation. 

3. Why were all the homosexual practices immoral? Did Moses just quash the practice of ‘lady men’ sleeping with men…And did he allow men to cohabit sexually in the tents beside others? There’s no archaeological proof of that…And explicit refutations of that Biblically…

You state that the practice of homosexuality was quashed by Moses…Did the law, handed to Moses by God, quash homosexuality? If it did, why? If that was wrong, is God’s law faulty?

The only examples of Biblical sexuality occur between a man and a woman…Your views deviate from this perspective.

4. How is it obvious that he is referring only to the orgiastic activities in Graeco-Roman society?

I know you didn’t say it was alright to have pre-marital sex. But based upon your previous arguments, I posited that it was okay to have pre-marital sex. If you can legitimise homosexuality on an ideal of relevance and understanding, I think you can do the same for promiscuity. Which in turn would render Paul’s opinion void…

Yep, I’ve noticed society accepting it. They’ve accepted it in different cultures for thousands of years. Except of course within Judaism, where they believed that God had labelled the practice of it immoral. But we shouldn’t accept the testimony of society, or it’s sway. We stick to his word, because it endures and never passes away. 

5. Okay, your articles refute mine in the same way that my articles refute yours. They do address the same points, but they don’t ‘refute’ each other. They just provide validation, in different interpretations, for the lives that each of us are living. Of course both aren’t correct, and naturally I believe mine is the Biblical, and historically consistent perspective. But your articles haven’t ‘refuted’ mine, in that they proved my points void…If anything, I’d say the other way round. 

6. Every part of me, and every part of everybody, needs redeeming by God. Sexuality included. 

Our God is loving. Our God is full of abundant grace. But he is not solely that. And we can’t always paint a picture of a loving God accepting our forays into sexuality. He is also angry at the sin in the world.

I honestly feel like that last paragraph is not scriptural. Homophobia is not mentioned in the Bible. So again, does omission mean that something is or is not a sin? 

Yes, he loves us abundantly. But he also calls us to deny ourselves, our passions and our lives, in search of Him. And then, and only then, do we find true fulfillment, forgiveness, love, peace and joy. In his arms. Not another’s. Male or female. The responsibility of researching articles and substantiating their claims (not just disliking the way they were written) as my, for lack of a better term, debating-opponent falls to you. When I read it, I found that it’s resources were adequate and it’s writing fair. It speaks of the origins of the discrimination of homosexuals within the church, yes it is a human concept. So naturally, the “supernatural law of God” is really spoken of.



  1. The responsibility of validating and clarifying articles and substantiating their claims (not just disliking the way they were written) as my, for lack of a better term, debating-opponent falls to you as I have already done my own research on that which I quote. When I read it, I found that it’s resources were adequate and it’s writing fair, thus I utilize it. The article you cite as lacking, speaks of the origins of the discrimination of homosexuals within the church, yes it is a human concept. So naturally, the “supernatural law of God” isn’t really spoken of.

    2. I would ask you, in hopes of retaining the appearance of Christian civility, too reel in your ire. Now, I have provided a multitude of well researched links and books. But if you want a list well:

Here are a handful of resources by-which you ought to familiarize yourself with.

Now you asked if, by logic of omission in Scripture, that homosexuality did not occur? I never implied that it didn’t! In fact, it is obvious that the passages are referring to individual acts of homosexuality of certain nature: unloving, lustful and orgiastic.

And just because it would be hard to find doesn’t mean it wasn’t allowed, just that it was irrelevant to the culture! Homosexuals(GLB persons) only make up 10-15% of the worlds population,(11% in the US). So unless it was very pronounced as in Ancient Greece and Rome, it wouldn’t be easy to trace (as it would be hard to do so for, say, ancient Armenia)!

3.  I establish that not all forms of homosexuality were immoral according to the OT, just pagan and forced acts(which debated even within my own sect of believe in this topic). And you are correct that there would be no evidence of men in cohabitation with the same sex in the desert or in Ancient Israelite towns. But also much of that evidence of habitation in those house have rotten away over the 2000 year period since the Jews last lived there! ( 70 AD-1948 AD) It was probably taboo, since 90-95% of the population was straight. But God knows it probably happened on some level (odds counting for such an occurrence, no matter how rare or frequent).

Also there are two examples in the Bible for (arguably) homosexual relationships 1) The Centurion and His “pais” (http://www.gaychristian101.com/Gay-Centurion.html; http://www.goodhopemcc.org/spirituality/would-jesus-discriminate) and 2) the Prophet Daniel (http://www.homosexualeunuchsandthebible.com/ ; http://queeringthechurch.com). Both instances have extremely strong cases arguing the legitimacy of homosexual relationships in God’s eyes.

4. It’s obvious what culture Paul was criticizing because of the chapter titles of his epistle. I apologize, I was not aware that needed clarification! In any case, much as I appreciate the snide, I could never uphold promiscuity as Paul makes his opinion on promiscuity very clear: sexual immorality is not permissible as Christians and this reflects the OT policy that God had Moses uphold.

5. And I would argue that my articles strike down yours and validate themselves Biblically as they retain more ethos and logos.

6. God is angry with injustice in the world, not with the world in of itself. And God creates us with these “forays into our sexuality”, and, so long as we act on it in a Christian manner, God will accept us for it. That is the loving, accepting God I worship and have loved my entire life. Not the one that says I need to change or stay celibate of my sexual orientation and deny myself the love I’d find in a husband’s arms as a heterosexual man would find in a wife’s!

A god who would deny that is not one to be worshiped and it doesn’t sound like God at all! And to “forgive” me of my natural desire for another man sounds silver-tongued at best!

God made me to have loving and pure relationship as I am to have with Him, and I will celebrate that one day in holy matrimony with my future husband! I will seek to mirror the image of Christ and His Bride as I will maintain the love between me and another man!

And don’t play with my words, homophobia is the hate, irrational fear, and ignorance regarding homosexual orientation. All things strongly condemned by Scripture (Prov. 26:24-26, Matt. 5:43-47, 1 John 2:9-10, 1 John  4:20, James 1:5, Ephesians 4:18)

I am sorry if I seem strong at times in this, but I am trying to have a civil discussion and I’m not a big fan of getting sniped at. If I ever seem to do that to you, I vehemently apologize as I don’t intend to!

YIC -Ian 

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